Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

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Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:52 am

This topic was first created on the v4musclebike forums and duplicated on the zggtr.org forum. Since the begining the "project" has created much interest, praise and criticism. 
Video collection of entire project from beginning to present.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&sid=90caa8e6be9c3 ... 9965cee#p2

Since the project is not specific to the concours or the v4 muscle bikes I have decided to continue the discussion here in a format that is generic to any bike with carburators. 

The software running this forum is phpBB and is new to me.  I have discovered already that there is not a spell checker and I hopefully I do not discover any other serious deficiencies.  If this forum software proves to be insufficient for the task I will move the forum to another more familiar software. 


the first posts are duplicated here. The full thread is available here http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23161.0

I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors. Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance. And occasionally here in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets. My concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs. One of my least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.

So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits? $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.

Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00 What is yours?
---
Well, I have an 84 Magna that I use for experiments, You may remember I removed the front end and replaced it with an adjustable rake last year....I haven't done anything to it since.

Well that bike has also given me carburetor headaches ever since I brought it home. So it is a good victim ehr candidate for a injector experiment.

Did some back of envelope sketches and came up with a parts list of what I think will be needed (other that some hard work)

MAP pressure sensor ebay hhr $16.00
Throttle position sensor ebay $20.00
Throttle body $15.00
Fuel Injector x 4 Ebay HHR $39.00
Coolant temp sensor Amazon $10.00
air temp sensor Ebay HHR $10.00
Oxygen sensor Ebay HHR $17.00
Fuel pump ebay $40.00
ECU home brew $45.00
Output logic digikey $10.00
output drivers digikey $10.00
Harnesses wireing Fuses ebay $25.00

Manifold Fabricate $50.00

Total $307.00 to start with. Misc probably another $100.00

So a prototype could be had for about $400 and a lot of hard work and invention ...The bike is just sitting there why not?
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admin
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Re: From the begining

Post by admin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:27 am

I have been having trouble focusing on this project. I had to change the head on my Connie just after finishing that I got all my bikes ready to sell. I sold my Honda Shadow, one of my Connies and My Magna 750. The Magna cam back with carb troubles that took a couple days to fix. Now things are finally quiet and I have the day off tomorrow.

I have found that trying to split my time between this project, work and fixing other motorcycles is not productive. I must reserve at least 5 hours on this project or there is not point to start. I need at lease 5 hours to focus my brain on the task and get anything done. Those days come along about once a week and tomorrow is the day.
So tomorrow my goal is to get all the wiring between the FET drivers and the output transistors finished. If I can get that done then will use what time is left to write some test software and probe around with a scope and make sure all the connections are right.

Broke the ground leg off the transistor package and had to start over.
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FEt drivers and output transistors.
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admin
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Re: From the begining

Post by admin » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm

Putting some molex connectors inline between injectors and the driver board.
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admin
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Posts: 44
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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:34 pm

Just getting started on the software.
I'm writing some basic functions to wiggle the outputs and test the inputs so I can check the hardware.

I haven't programmed anything in C for several years.. This feel good.


/* Define the output pins */
int Injector_1_pin = 13; // select the pin for the Injector 1
int Injector_2_pin = 12;
int Injector_3_pin = 11;
int Injector_4_pin = 10;

//Global Variables
int Oxy = 0; // variable to hold the oxygen input value
int WaterTemp =0; //variable to hold the water temperature value
int AirTemp =0; // variable to hold the airtemperature value
int Map = 0; // variable to hold the value of manifold vacuum
int ThrottleValue = 0; //variable for throttle value
int CurPulseWidth = 0; //The current value of the injector pulse width.

void setup() {
// declare the injector pins as OUTPUTS:
pinMode(Injector_1_pin, OUTPUT);
pinMode(Injector_2_pin, OUTPUT);
pinMode(Injector_3_pin, OUTPUT);
pinMode(Injector_4_pin, OUTPUT);
}

void loop() {
// read the value from the sensor:
ThrottleValue = analogRead(ThrottleInp);

admin
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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:53 pm

Some news. Maybe good , maybe not. But I got excited when I learned about it.

My hardware design is a pretty primitive breadboard and the software has just begun. I learned from a friend that there is a group that has already gone down the same path. They are using the same hardware that I picked and are very far along on the software development.

I just found it and am looking at their information now. Looks very promising. If it pans out then I am miles ahead to just scrap my circuit board and go with their's .. I will update after I have a chance to dig into it.

I just bought the hardware boards and it will take several weeks to arrive from Iseral. I already have their software loaded on my machine and I will be ready when the hardware arrives.
The ECU is based on the Arduino micro-controller. They control both the injectors and the spark and require feedback from the motor timing.

It requires either a sensor on a crank sprocket with one missing tooth or a once around signal on the camshaft to know when top dead center of cylinder 1 occurs.

Last time I looked inside the crankshaft cover it seemed pretty crowded. I don't think there is room for another sensor in there.

Perhaps a magnet mounted on one of the cam sprockets would suffice. More study is required.

???
From their documentation ...

" A dual wheel trigger is one where there is a primary multi-tooth wheel combined with a secondary single pulse to provide location information. The primary input should contain no missing teeth. Both pulses can run at either cam or crank speed, but sequential operations requires that the secondary pulse is located on the cam. The design of the secondary trigger can vary (Eg a single short tooth, half-moon wheel etc), provided it only provides a single pulse per revolution.

Tooth #1 is defined to be the first tooth on the primary wheel AFTER the pulse on the secondary wheel."

it looks like the missing tooth is not necessary if there is a second sensor to indicate where the cam is. So a sensor on the flywheel and another on the cam should be what they are looking for.
---------------------
My goal has been and still is $400. And I think with this solution it may be about right.

I have been talking with the developers and they say that if all I want is fuel control and willing to forgo the spark control I can set up the software to work by just using the tach for RPM data. That may be good enough for me and most applications sinca Honda already controls the spark advance. In a higher performance application you may want to add the timing wheel and sensor to the crank shaft.

I paid $159 for the board .And I probably have another $150 in various parts.

The board comes with the map sensor already installed which is about a $15 savings.

The manifold was the hardest piece. It took me 3 iterations to get it right but the one I have now i believe will work well. But final cost is about $10.

The throttle body came off ebay but you can probably get one from local salvage.

The injectors also came from ebay for about $20.

I have purchased a lot of things for experimenting that ended up not being used or turned out not to fit the application so it is hard to nail down the exact cost of my first try. But when I am finished I will taly up the exact cost and post it here. My guess is about $400.

admin
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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:06 pm

I am so anxious to get started. I install teh software on my computer and I have the software compiled. But I have an odd rev (not compatible ) version of the arduino board and the software will not download the the ECU. Damn !. I ordered a replacement and it will be here by end of the week I hope.

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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:45 am

Replacement board arrived . Now I have the correct revision of Arduino. Compiled the code and downloaded it to the ECU board. Actually just the arduino because I am still waiting for the Speeduino board to arrive from Israel.

I was able to Download and install Tuner-studio and get it to run on my PC. I did the setup and configuration and WOW. Up popped the tuner displays and some of the dials had actual readings.

I am impressed that it all came together in less than an hour of putzing around and getting it configured.

So the preliminaries are all done. When the Speeduino arrives I can hook up the actual sensors and see how things interact.
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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:28 pm

I have been concerned about the air intake and filtering on the injector retrofit on my 87 magna. The plenum with the throttle body sitting on top reaches almost to the bottom of the tank. There is about 3 quarters of an inch to invent some sort of an airbox and filter "something" so...

I sold my 97 honda magna, my 87 honda shadow and my 96 Kawasaki c10. Raised enough cash to buy a 2009 Yamaha Vstar 950. I love it so far.
Had just enough cash left over to buy me another toy.

So...I got a 3D printer. I should be able to design a custom air/filter box that fits nicely in the space I have left and attaches snug to the throttle body. I ordered it last night and still waiting for the shipping confirmation. Never had one before and don't know how to use it yet but it will be fun I'm sure.

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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:39 am


admin
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Re: Fuel Injector Retrofit Project

Post by admin » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:13 pm

I found the schematics and documentation online. There was even a CAD file of a case for it to fit in which I promptly printed on my new 3D printer. Now I need to find a place in the bike to hide it. I did not get the full version of the board because of space constraints. I got the smaller board which only has 2 injector outputs. I can choose to use it in batch mode and share 1 output between 2 injectors or configure the software to use some of the other outputs that were originally intended for Fuel pump and Boost.


I've got a lot of bench testing to do but this is going to be fun for a while.
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